This video features investor Bill Gurley discussing the current state of AI, its potential for wealth creation, and the associated speculative behavior. He references historical technological revolutions and financial capital, drawing parallels to the AI boom, and offers insights into navigating investments in private companies amidst this evolving landscape. Gurley also provides advice for angel investors looking for promising AI-intersected opportunities.
Here are the questions Tim Ferriss asks and Bill Gurley's responses, using language and style from the transcript:
Tim: "AI bubble or not? And if so, what does that mean?" Bill: "So, I think this is super interesting. My my partner Peter reminded me of a book that we had seen a a while ago by Carla Perez. It has this very benign title, Technological Revolutions and Financial Capital. It was written in like 2002. And what Perez kind of simplifies and notices, which I just find perfect for trying to understand whether there's a bubble or not, is that every time there's been a technology wave that leads to wealth creation, especially fast wealth creation, that will inherently invite speculators, carpet baggers, interlopers that want to come take advantage of it. Think of the gold rush, you know, and so people want to make it a debate. Do you believe in AI or is it a bubble? And if you say you think it's a bubble, they say, 'Oh, you don't believe in AI.' Like this gotcha kind of thing. And if you study Perez, and I I think this is absolutely correct. If the wave is real, then you're going to have bubble-like behavior. like they come together as a pair precisely because anytime there's very quick wealth creation, you're going to get a lot of people that want to come try and take advantage of that or participate in it. So, you get a flood of those types of people coming at it. And so, it's odd. There's a real technology wave that's that's fundamentally changing the world and there's also massive speculation simultaneous. Yeah, they come as a pair."
Tim: "Could you explain what you mean by that [circular deals]?" Bill: "Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of talk out there, but it all started when Microsoft invested in OpenAI, OpenAI agreed to buy services from Microsoft. Yeah. Which is called a circular deal because you're giving them money they wouldn't have otherwise. And when Daario was on stage at Dealbook last week, he said, 'Oh, I can explain this. It's not that hard. Amazon wanted us to spend money we didn't have, so they gave us even more money.' And I'm like, well, that's precisely why this is a questionable behavior. But it's gotten bigger. You know, Nvidia's handing out money, and then Nvidia gave Coree money, but then also agreed to buy any services they have left over. this stuff's not ideal. Like if you were to say, 'What's crisp, clean accounting?' You know, you wouldn't do these kind of things. And some of them say, 'Well, it's not material.' And which I would say, 'Well, then why are you doing it?'"
Tim: "And just I suppose as it's changed since you were most active," Bill: "I mean, there's a lot of talk out there, but it all started when Microsoft invested in OpenAI, OpenAI agreed to buy services from Microsoft. Yeah. Which is called a circular deal because you're giving them money they wouldn't have otherwise. And when Daario was on stage at Dealbook last week, he said, 'Oh, I can explain this. It's not that hard. Amazon wanted us to spend money we didn't have, so they gave us even more money.' And I'm like, well, that's precisely why this is a questionable behavior. But it's gotten bigger. You know, Nvidia's handing out money, and then Nvidia gave Coree money, but then also agreed to buy any services they have left over. this stuff's not ideal. Like if you were to say, 'What's crisp, clean accounting?' You know, you wouldn't do these kind of things. And some of them say, 'Well, it's not material.' And which I would say, 'Well, then why are you doing it?' I've asked other people to try and understand how even big sophisticated companies might get speculative using a word from the previous discussion. And I hear things like, well, you know, loss aversion tends to go down when you're winning. Like if you're on a hot streak in a casino, you take more risk. Things like that. But it is surprising to me. When it comes to retail investors, I mean, I would be particularly concerned for them at this stage in the AI game because there is a plethora of SPV vehicles. You've heard that phrase, I'm sure, SPV. This is where someone has an in on an investment and they do a oneoff VC fund if you will. Yeah. It's a single entity just for that to invest in X. We have an allocation of however much money and then they can allow sort of Jane Doe and John Doe potentially and they take a rake on it and there's people promoting SPVS in situations where they don't even actually have the underlying stock or maybe they hope to get it. It's the wild wild west and most of the people on that edge I would put in the category of interloper carpet bagger these are people that have come to this thing and I just think you got to be quite careful the the investments that were made that have already had 100x plus returns were made a while ago you know before this thing started."
Tim: "Could you explain what you mean by that?" [referring to circular deals] Bill: "Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of talk out there, but it all started when Microsoft invested in OpenAI, OpenAI agreed to buy services from Microsoft. Yeah. Which is called a circular deal because you're giving them money they wouldn't have otherwise."
Tim: "Could you explain what you mean by that?" [referring to 'circular deal'] Bill: "Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of talk out there, but it all started when Microsoft invested in OpenAI, OpenAI agreed to buy services from Microsoft. Yeah. Which is called a circular deal because you're giving them money they wouldn't have otherwise."
Tim: "And just I suppose as it's changed since you were most active," Bill: "I mean, there's a lot of talk out there, but it all started when Microsoft invested in OpenAI, OpenAI agreed to buy services from Microsoft. Yeah. Which is called a circular deal because you're giving them money they wouldn't have otherwise. And when Daario was on stage at Dealbook last week, he said, 'Oh, I can explain this. It's not that hard. Amazon wanted us to spend money we didn't have, so they gave us even more money.' And I'm like, well, that's precisely why this is a questionable behavior. But it's gotten bigger. You know, Nvidia's handing out money, and then Nvidia gave Coree money, but then also agreed to buy any services they have left over. this stuff's not ideal. Like if you were to say, 'What's crisp, clean accounting?' You know, you wouldn't do these kind of things. And some of them say, 'Well, it's not material.' And which I would say, 'Well, then why are you doing it?' I've asked other people to try and understand how even big sophisticated companies might get speculative using a word from the previous discussion. And I hear things like, well, you know, loss aversion tends to go down when you're winning. Like if you're on a hot streak in a casino, you take more risk. Things like that. But it is surprising to me. When it comes to retail investors, I mean, I would be particularly concerned for them at this stage in the AI game because there is a plethora of SPV vehicles. You've heard that phrase, I'm sure, SPV. This is where someone has an in on an investment and they do a oneoff VC fund if you will. Yeah. It's a single entity just to invest in X. We have an allocation of however much money and then they can allow sort of Jane Doe and John Doe potentially and they take a rake on it and there's people promoting SPVS in situations where they don't even actually have the underlying stock or maybe they hope to get it. It's the wild wild west and most of the people on that edge I would put in the category of interloper carpet bagger these are people that have come to this thing and I just think you got to be quite careful the the investments that were made that have already had 100x plus returns were made a while ago you know before this thing started."
Tim: "Could you explain what you mean by that?" [referring to circular deals] Bill: "Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of talk out there, but it all started when Microsoft invested in OpenAI, OpenAI agreed to buy services from Microsoft. Yeah. Which is called a circular deal because you're giving them money they wouldn't have otherwise."
Tim: "But I suppose given that the dancing pair you described come together, how would you think about investing in private companies, modern venture capital at this point in time?" Bill: "I mean, there's a lot of talk out there, but it all started when Microsoft invested in OpenAI, OpenAI agreed to buy services from Microsoft. Yeah. Which is called a circular deal because you're giving them money they wouldn't have otherwise. And when Daario was on stage at Dealbook last week, he said, 'Oh, I can explain this. It's not that hard. Amazon wanted us to spend money we didn't have, so they gave us even more money.' And I'm like, well, that's precisely why this is a questionable behavior. But it's gotten bigger. You know, Nvidia's handing out money, and then Nvidia gave Coree money, but then also agreed to buy any services they have left over. this stuff's not ideal. Like if you were to say, 'What's crisp, clean accounting?' You know, you wouldn't do these kind of things. And some of them say, 'Well, it's not material.' And which I would say, 'Well, then why are you doing it?' I've asked other people to try and understand how even big sophisticated companies might get speculative using a word from the previous discussion. And I hear things like, well, you know, loss aversion tends to go down when you're winning. Like if you're on a hot streak in a casino, you take more risk. Things like that. But it is surprising to me. When it comes to retail investors, I mean, I would be particularly concerned for them at this stage in the AI game because there is a plethora of SPV vehicles. You've heard that phrase, I'm sure, SPV. This is where someone has an in on an investment and they do a oneoff VC fund if you will. Yeah. It's a single entity just to invest in X. We have an allocation of however much money and then they can allow sort of Jane Doe and John Doe potentially and they take a rake on it and there's people promoting SPVS in situations where they don't even actually have the underlying stock or maybe they hope to get it. It's the wild wild west and most of the people on that edge I would put in the category of interloper carpet bagger these are people that have come to this thing and I just think you got to be quite careful the the investments that were made that have already had 100x plus returns were made a while ago you know before this thing started."
Tim: "Could you explain what you mean by that?" [referring to circular deals] Bill: "Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of talk out there, but it all started when Microsoft invested in OpenAI, OpenAI agreed to buy services from Microsoft. Yeah. Which is called a circular deal because you're giving them money they wouldn't have otherwise."
Tim: "Could you explain what you mean by that?" [referring to circular deals] Bill: "Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of talk out there, but it all started when Microsoft invested in OpenAI, OpenAI agreed to buy services from Microsoft. Yeah. Which is called a circular deal because you're giving them money they wouldn't have otherwise."
Tim: "So there is a unglamorous side to it as much as there is a glamorous side. And you've participated in this world before. What would I say? I think if I were doing angel investments, I'd try and find an intersection of people that are super curious and are playing with all these AI tools, but bring a perspective from a particular industry that gives them an advantage in that area where they could simultaneously be maybe the smartest user of AI in their genre, in their vertical. So despite the or maybe because of because we talked about the pair the AI bubble, you would still be looking at AI intersected opportunities if you were angel investing." Bill: "The key is just to stay pretty far away from the edge of whatever. I mean, you can go online and see interviews with people at Anthropic or OpenAI and what they're working on. Like, if it's the next thing they're going to do, I don't think you're going to be protected. But as I think about, you know, founders and angel investors, you're talking about a pretty broad array of things at this point. As I mentioned earlier, you're not going to back the next big model company. Besides, if if you were, you need a billion dollar angel investment to go make that happen. Like, it's just really the game's changed. There's so much money involved. I think you're going to want to be off the beaten path anyway. When I think about these deeper verticals, I don't think it will make sense for open AI to go crush every little vertical [waste management]. And even if the model's capable of understanding that subject matter, there are workflows, there are data sets that are local to your customer and that stuff has to be stitched together. Mhm. So I think having an understanding of a particular industry and and one that's not going to be on the next thing to do list at OpenAI would probably be your best bet."
Tim: "Define the institutional investor." Bill: "People who are paid both a a salary and a piece of the return to be active investors of other people's money using other people's money. But the reason that kind of matters is if you angel fund a deal and have any hope of it raising money in the future, if it's not AI related right now, could die of neglect. There is no interest. I can't state clearly enough how there's zero in and I could I could [snorts] simultaneously make fun of that reality, but I could also justify that reality, but it is the reality right now. And by the way, while I mention that, I feel obligated for your audience. Like, I don't care what field you're in, you should be playing with this stuff. Like, it has the potential to impact your role in your career. And the best way to protect against any risk of your career being obuscated or eliminated from AI is to be the most AI enabled version of yourself you can possibly be."
Tim: "How would you think about maybe you can give a hypothetical example of looking for someone who has very very sophisticated domain expertise and experience who's now intersecting with AI and has a unique because of the combination perspective on things to invest in as an angel investor separate that from something that's just going to be consumed by the fundamental the kind of fundamental models and these larger companies" Bill: "The key is just to stay pretty far away from the edge of whatever. I mean, you can go online and see interviews with people at Anthropic or OpenAI and what they're working on. Like, if it's the next thing they're going to do, I don't think you're going to be protected. But as I think about, you know, founders and angel investors, you're talking about a pretty broad array of things at this point. As I mentioned earlier, you're not going to back the next big model company. Besides, if if you were, you need a billion dollar angel investment to go make that happen. Like, it's just really the game's changed. There's so much money involved. I think you're going to want to be off the beaten path anyway. When I think about these deeper verticals, I don't think it will make sense for open AI to go crush every little vertical [waste management]. And even if the model's capable of understanding that subject matter, there are workflows, there are data sets that are local to your customer and that stuff has to be stitched together. Mhm. So I think having an understanding of a particular industry and and one that's not going to be on the next thing to do list at OpenAI would probably be your best bet."
Tim: "from a career perspective. perspective or from an angel investment perspective, how would you pick folks you don't think are just going to end up working on something that gets replicated in short order by the bigger companies?" Bill: "The key is just to stay pretty far away from the edge of whatever. I mean, you can go online and see interviews with people at Anthropic or OpenAI and what they're working on. Like, if it's the next thing they're going to do, I don't think you're going to be protected. But as I think about, you know, founders and angel investors, you're talking about a pretty broad array of things at this point. As I mentioned earlier, you're not going to back the next big model company. Besides, if if you were, you need a billion dollar angel investment to go make that happen. Like, it's just really the game's changed. There's so much money involved. I think you're going to want to be off the beaten path anyway. When I think about these deeper verticals, I don't think it will make sense for open AI to go crush every little vertical [waste management]. And even if the model's capable of understanding that subject matter, there are workflows, there are data sets that are local to your customer and that stuff has to be stitched together. Mhm. So I think having an understanding of a particular industry and and one that's not going to be on the next thing to do list at OpenAI would probably be your best bet."
Tim: "So is it fair to say if I'm understanding you correctly that effectively looking for something that would not be a high priority for one of these larger companies and also a proprietary data set of some type?" Bill: "proprietary data sets. The more kind of workflows that exist are are better because you can build software around those things."
Tim: "What is a workflow?" Bill: "The thing that popped in my head, I'm on the board of Zillow. You know, Zillow's been investing for the past 5 years in tools that help the realtor do their day-to-day job. They have a tool called Showing Time that helps you book inerson tours at houses, as an example. But there's putting the mortgage together, getting the sign offs on, like there's just all these tasks that have to be happen that can be automated."
Here's a breakdown of Tim Ferriss's questions and Bill Gurley's answers, presented in a readable list format using language directly from the transcript:
Tim: "AI bubble or not? And if so, what does that mean?" Bill: "So, I think this is super interesting. My my partner Peter reminded me of a book that we had seen a a while ago by Carla Perez. It has this very benign title, Technological Revolutions and Financial Capital. It was written in like 2002. And what Perez kind of simplifies and notices, which I just find perfect for trying to understand whether there's a bubble or not, is that every time there's been a technology wave that leads to wealth creation, especially fast wealth creation, that will inherently invite speculators, carpet baggers, interlopers that want to come take advantage of it. Think of the gold rush, you know, and so people want to make it a debate. Do you believe in AI or is it a bubble? And if you say you think it's a bubble, they say, 'Oh, you don't believe in AI.' Like this gotcha kind of thing. And if you study Perez, and I I think this is absolutely correct. If the wave is real, then you're going to have bubble-like behavior. like they come together as a pair precisely because anytime there's very quick wealth creation, you're going to get a lot of people that want to come try and take advantage of that or participate in it. So, you get a flood of those types of people coming at it. And so, it's odd. There's a real technology wave that's that's fundamentally changing the world and there's also massive speculation simultaneous. Yeah, they come as a pair."
Tim: "Could you explain what you mean by that?" (referring to circular deals) Bill: "Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of talk out there, but it all started when Microsoft invested in OpenAI, OpenAI agreed to buy services from Microsoft. Yeah. Which is called a circular deal because you're giving them money they wouldn't have otherwise. And when Daario was on stage at Dealbook last week, he said, 'Oh, I can explain this. It's not that hard. Amazon wanted us to spend money we didn't have, so they gave us even more money.' And I'm like, well, that's precisely why this is a questionable behavior. But it's gotten bigger. You know, Nvidia's handing out money, and then Nvidia gave Coree money, but then also agreed to buy any services they have left over. this stuff's not ideal. Like if you were to say, 'What's crisp, clean accounting?' You know, you wouldn't do these kind of things. And some of them say, 'Well, it's not material.' And which I would say, 'Well, then why are you doing it?'"
Tim: "And just I suppose as it's changed since you were most active," Bill: "I mean, there's a lot of talk out there, but it all started when Microsoft invested in OpenAI, OpenAI agreed to buy services from Microsoft. Yeah. Which is called a circular deal because you're giving them money they wouldn't have otherwise. And when Daario was on stage at Dealbook last week, he said, 'Oh, I can explain this. It's not that hard. Amazon wanted us to spend money we didn't have, so they gave us even more money.' And I'm like, well, that's precisely why this is a questionable behavior. But it's gotten bigger. You know, Nvidia's handing out money, and then Nvidia gave Coree money, but then also agreed to buy any services they have left over. this stuff's not ideal. Like if you were to say, 'What's crisp, clean accounting?' You know, you wouldn't do these kind of things. And some of them say, 'Well, it's not material.' And which I would say, 'Well, then why are you doing it?' I've asked other people to try and understand how even big sophisticated companies might get speculative using a word from the previous discussion. And I hear things like, well, you know, loss aversion tends to go down when you're winning. Like if you're on a hot streak in a casino, you take more risk. Things like that. But it is surprising to me. When it comes to retail investors, I mean, I would be particularly concerned for them at this stage in the AI game because there is a plethora of SPV vehicles. You've heard that phrase, I'm sure, SPV. This is where someone has an in on an investment and they do a oneoff VC fund if you will. Yeah. It's a single entity just for that to invest in X. We have an allocation of however much money and then they can allow sort of Jane Doe and John Doe potentially and they take a rake on it and there's people promoting SPVS in situations where they don't even actually have the underlying stock or maybe they hope to get it. It's the wild wild west and most of the people on that edge I would put in the category of interloper carpet bagger these are people that have come to this thing and I just think you got to be quite careful the the investments that were made that have already had 100x plus returns were made a while ago you know before this thing started."
Tim: "Could you explain what you mean by that?" (referring to circular deals) Bill: "Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of talk out there, but it all started when Microsoft invested in OpenAI, OpenAI agreed to buy services from Microsoft. Yeah. Which is called a circular deal because you're giving them money they wouldn't have otherwise."
Tim: "But I suppose given that the dancing pair you described come together, how would you think about investing in private companies, modern venture capital at this point in time?" Bill: "I mean, there's a lot of talk out there, but it all started when Microsoft invested in OpenAI, OpenAI agreed to buy services from Microsoft. Yeah. Which is called a circular deal because you're giving them money they wouldn't have otherwise. And when Daario was on stage at Dealbook last week, he said, 'Oh, I can explain this. It's not that hard. Amazon wanted us to spend money we didn't have, so they gave us even more money.' And I'm like, well, that's precisely why this is a questionable behavior. But it's gotten bigger. You know, Nvidia's handing out money, and then Nvidia gave Coree money, but then also agreed to buy any services they have left over. this stuff's not ideal. Like if you were to say, 'What's crisp, clean accounting?' You know, you wouldn't do these kind of things. And some of them say, 'Well, it's not material.' And which I would say, 'Well, then why are you doing it?' I've asked other people to try and understand how even big sophisticated companies might get speculative using a word from the previous discussion. And I hear things like, well, you know, loss aversion tends to go down when you're winning. Like if you're on a hot streak in a casino, you take more risk. Things like that. But it is surprising to me. When it comes to retail investors, I mean, I would be particularly concerned for them at this stage in the AI game because there is a plethora of SPV vehicles. You've heard that phrase, I'm sure, SPV. This is where someone has an in on an investment and they do a oneoff VC fund if you will. Yeah. It's a single entity just to invest in X. We have an allocation of however much money and then they can allow sort of Jane Doe and John Doe potentially and they take a rake on it and there's people promoting SPVS in situations where they don't even actually have the underlying stock or maybe they hope to get it. It's the wild wild west and most of the people on that edge I would put in the category of interloper carpet bagger these are people that have come to this thing and I just think you got to be quite careful the the investments that were made that have already had 100x plus returns were made a while ago you know before this thing started."
Tim: "Could you explain what you mean by that?" (referring to circular deals) Bill: "Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of talk out there, but it all started when Microsoft invested in OpenAI, OpenAI agreed to buy services from Microsoft. Yeah. Which is called a circular deal because you're giving them money they wouldn't have otherwise."
Tim: "So there is a unglamorous side to it as much as there is a glamorous side. And you've participated in this world before. What would I say? I think if I were doing angel investments, I'd try and find an intersection of people that are super curious and are playing with all these AI tools, but bring a perspective from a particular industry that gives them an advantage in that area where they could simultaneously be maybe the smartest user of AI in their genre, in their vertical. So despite the or maybe because of because we talked about the pair the AI bubble, you would still be looking at AI intersected opportunities if you were angel investing." Bill: "The key is just to stay pretty far away from the edge of whatever. I mean, you can go online and see interviews with people at Anthropic or OpenAI and what they're working on. Like, if it's the next thing they're going to do, I don't think you're going to be protected. But as I think about, you know, founders and angel investors, you're talking about a pretty broad array of things at this point. As I mentioned earlier, you're not going to back the next big model company. Besides, if if you were, you need a billion dollar angel investment to go make that happen. Like, it's just really the game's changed. There's so much money involved. I think you're going to want to be off the beaten path anyway. When I think about these deeper verticals, I don't think it will make sense for open AI to go crush every little vertical [waste management]. And even if the model's capable of understanding that subject matter, there are workflows, there are data sets that are local to your customer and that stuff has to be stitched together. Mhm. So I think having an understanding of a particular industry and and one that's not going to be on the next thing to do list at OpenAI would probably be your best bet."
Tim: "Define the institutional investor." Bill: "People who are paid both a a salary and a piece of the return to be active investors of other people's money using other people's money. But the reason that kind of matters is if you angel fund a deal and have any hope of it raising money in the future, if it's not AI related right now, could die of neglect. There is no interest. I can't state clearly enough how there's zero in and I could I could [snorts] simultaneously make fun of that reality, but I could also justify that reality, but it is the reality right now. And by the way, while I mention that, I feel obligated for your audience. Like, I don't care what field you're in, you should be playing with this stuff. Like, it has the potential to impact your role in your career. And the best way to protect against any risk of your career being obuscated or eliminated from AI is to be the most AI enabled version of yourself you can possibly be."
Tim: "How would you think about maybe you can give a hypothetical example of looking for someone who has very very sophisticated domain expertise and experience who's now intersecting with AI and has a unique because of the combination perspective on things to invest in as an angel investor separate that from something that's just going to be consumed by the fundamental the kind of fundamental models and these larger companies" Bill: "The key is just to stay pretty far away from the edge of whatever. I mean, you can go online and see interviews with people at Anthropic or OpenAI and what they're working on. Like, if it's the next thing they're going to do, I don't think you're going to be protected. But as I think about, you know, founders and angel investors, you're talking about a pretty broad array of things at this point. As I mentioned earlier, you're not going to back the next big model company. Besides, if if you were, you need a billion dollar angel investment to go make that happen. Like, it's just really the game's changed. There's so much money involved. I think you're going to want to be off the beaten path anyway. When I think about these deeper verticals, I don't think it will make sense for open AI to go crush every little vertical [waste management]. And even if the model's capable of understanding that subject matter, there are workflows, there are data sets that are local to your customer and that stuff has to be stitched together. Mhm. So I think having an understanding of a particular industry and and one that's not going to be on the next thing to do list at OpenAI would probably be your best bet."
Tim: "from a career perspective. perspective or from an angel investment perspective, how would you pick folks you don't think are just going to end up working on something that gets replicated in short order by the bigger companies?" Bill: "The key is just to stay pretty far away from the edge of whatever. I mean, you can go online and see interviews with people at Anthropic or OpenAI and what they're working on. Like, if it's the next thing they're going to do, I don't think you're going to be protected. But as I think about, you know, founders and angel investors, you're talking about a pretty broad array of things at this point. As I mentioned earlier, you're not going to back the next big model company. Besides, if if you were, you need a billion dollar angel investment to go make that happen. Like, it's just really the game's changed. There's so much money involved. I think you're going to want to be off the beaten path anyway. When I think about these deeper verticals, I don't think it will make sense for open AI to go crush every little vertical [waste management]. And even if the model's capable of understanding that subject matter, there are workflows, there are data sets that are local to your customer and that stuff has to be stitched together. Mhm. So I think having an understanding of a particular industry and and one that's not going to be on the next thing to do list at OpenAI would probably be your best bet."
Tim: "So is it fair to say if I'm understanding you correctly that effectively looking for something that would not be a high priority for one of these larger companies and also a proprietary data set of some type?" Bill: "proprietary data sets. The more kind of workflows that exist are are better because you can build software around those things."
Tim: "What is a workflow?" Bill: "The thing that popped in my head, I'm on the board of Zillow. You know, Zillow's been investing for the past 5 years in tools that help the realtor do their day-to-day job. They have a tool called Showing Time that helps you book inerson tours at houses, as an example. But there's putting the mortgage together, getting the sign offs on, like there's just all these tasks that have to be happen that can be automated."
