This video features a discussion between Nadine Strossen and Holly Lawford-Smith on the complex issues surrounding pornography and free speech. They explore various facets of the topic, including legal definitions, academic freedom, the impact of changing pornography production, feminist perspectives, the intersection of hate speech and pornography, and the philosophical underpinnings of liberty and equality in the context of expression.
[{"start_ms":"280","end_ms":"7359","text":"welcome to Brin and evat we are delighted to be rejoined by Nadine Sten and we're going to be talking about uh","start_time_text":"0:00"},{"start_ms":"7359","end_ms":"14320","text":"pornography and Free Speech uh Nadine has just produced this absolutely wonderful guide on Free Speech uh and","start_time_text":"0:07"},{"start_ms":"14320","end_ms":"20600","text":"has re-released her classic book defending pornography uh today I'm not joined by Jason I'm joined by Holly","start_time_text":"0:14"},{"start_ms":"20600","end_ms":"28439","text":"lford Smith H one of our also favorite guests thank you so much Mark and Holly and let me show you my this is the most","start_time_text":"0:20"},{"start_ms":"28439","end_ms":"36040","text":"recent version of my book about pornography uh defending pornography free speech sex and the fight for","start_time_text":"0:28"},{"start_ms":"36040","end_ms":"41840","text":"women's rights the term pornography uh doesn't have any specific","start_time_text":"0:36"},{"start_ms":"41840","end_ms":"49160","text":"legal meaning but I use it the way it is sometimes used uh which is um the","start_time_text":"0:41"},{"start_ms":"49160","end_ms":"57480","text":"dictionary meaning refers to expression about sex that is words or images about","start_time_text":"0:49"},{"start_ms":"57480","end_ms":"64040","text":"sex that are intended to be or have the effect of being sexually stimulating uh","start_time_text":"0:57"},{"start_ms":"64040","end_ms":"70560","text":"before I say anything more Mark let aun Holly please let me say that when I um","start_time_text":"1:04"},{"start_ms":"70560","end_ms":"76680","text":"began by noting that the term pornography is sometimes used in that","start_time_text":"1:10"},{"start_ms":"76680","end_ms":"81920","text":"dictionary fashion um it is usually used","start_time_text":"1:16"},{"start_ms":"81920","end_ms":"87720","text":"in a derogatory sense at least in the United States I cannot speak for other","start_time_text":"1:21"},{"start_ms":"87720","end_ms":"94880","text":"anglicon countries uh but people tend to use the word pornography for whatever","start_time_text":"1:27"},{"start_ms":"94880","end_ms":"102920","text":"subset of sexually oriented expression they consider distasteful or revolting","start_time_text":"1:34"},{"start_ms":"102920","end_ms":"109799","text":"or offensive in some way but um when I use the term unless I say otherwise I'm","start_time_text":"1:42"},{"start_ms":"109799","end_ms":"116240","text":"uh referring just straightforwardly to expression about sex that is intended or","start_time_text":"1:49"},{"start_ms":"116240","end_ms":"122360","text":"has the effect of being sexually stimulating so um For Better or Worse there are","start_time_text":"1:56"},{"start_ms":"122360","end_ms":"127439","text":"constant controversies about pornography in the United States which is why I was","start_time_text":"2:02"},{"start_ms":"127439","end_ms":"133879","text":"asked to rewrite my book or reissue it for the third time one of the recent","start_time_text":"2:07"},{"start_ms":"133879","end_ms":"140040","text":"cases that I think will make a great uh experiment a thought experiment uh","start_time_text":"2:13"},{"start_ms":"140040","end_ms":"146760","text":"involves a Provost a leading academic official of a State","start_time_text":"2:20"},{"start_ms":"146760","end_ms":"155400","text":"University in Wisconsin in the middle of the United States who as far as I know had a very long track record as a","start_time_text":"2:26"},{"start_ms":"155400","end_ms":"162159","text":"respected professor as well as University official recently however it","start_time_text":"2:35"},{"start_ms":"162159","end_ms":"168680","text":"came to light that one of his advocations um was not only making","start_time_text":"2:42"},{"start_ms":"168680","end_ms":"176400","text":"videos of himself and his wife cooking uh vegan recipes presumably that would","start_time_text":"2:48"},{"start_ms":"176400","end_ms":"183280","text":"not have gotten him into hot water uh but they did so in the context of","start_time_text":"2:56"},{"start_ms":"183280","end_ms":"190680","text":"engaging in sexual conduct uh with themselves with each other uh but","start_time_text":"3:03"},{"start_ms":"190680","end_ms":"198159","text":"sometimes also with other parties including uh sex workers and classic","start_time_text":"3:10"},{"start_ms":"198159","end_ms":"205319","text":"pornography and I actually consider this to be a very difficult issue and if you","start_time_text":"3:18"},{"start_ms":"205319","end_ms":"212400","text":"U permit me I will just think aloud and I would love to hear what you and think about it too I'm not sure if that's part","start_time_text":"3:25"},{"start_ms":"212400","end_ms":"217640","text":"of your your format but I'm sure you can open my mind about it on the one hand it","start_time_text":"3:32"},{"start_ms":"217640","end_ms":"225799","text":"is clear that what they were engaging in is sexual expression indeed it's","start_time_text":"3:37"},{"start_ms":"225799","end_ms":"234159","text":"expression about cooking um and uh conversation as well as sexual intimacy","start_time_text":"3:45"},{"start_ms":"234159","end_ms":"240040","text":"uh for that reason it is protected speech and the americ American","start_time_text":"3:54"},{"start_ms":"240040","end_ms":"246680","text":"Association of University professors which has set the standard for academic","start_time_text":"4:00"},{"start_ms":"246680","end_ms":"253040","text":"freedom in the United States which is respected by the courts has said that","start_time_text":"4:06"},{"start_ms":"253040","end_ms":"260280","text":"when it comes to extra mural speech that is in the faculty members","start_time_text":"4:13"},{"start_ms":"260280","end_ms":"267240","text":"nonprofessional capacity not part of the research Enterprise not part of the","start_time_text":"4:20"},{"start_ms":"267240","end_ms":"273800","text":"teaching Enterprise that they should have exactly the same Free Speech rights","start_time_text":"4:27"},{"start_ms":"273800","end_ms":"279560","text":"as any other member of the community you should not be forced to give up your","start_time_text":"4:33"},{"start_ms":"279560","end_ms":"284840","text":"usual what we call a free speech rights as a citizen in Your Capacity as a","start_time_text":"4:39"},{"start_ms":"284840","end_ms":"292280","text":"member of our political Community as the price of being hired as a faculty member","start_time_text":"4:44"},{"start_ms":"292280","end_ms":"297840","text":"retaining your job as a faculty member so to me that's a very plausible","start_time_text":"4:52"},{"start_ms":"297840","end_ms":"305160","text":"argument that he his Free Speech rights were violated uh when he loses his","start_time_text":"4:57"},{"start_ms":"305160","end_ms":"311360","text":"academic position as a result of engaging that expression uh but let me","start_time_text":"5:05"},{"start_ms":"311360","end_ms":"317720","text":"make this what to me is the strongest plausible counter argument and that is","start_time_text":"5:11"},{"start_ms":"317720","end_ms":"325160","text":"that I think it showed very poor judgment uh to make this video publicly","start_time_text":"5:17"},{"start_ms":"325160","end_ms":"330280","text":"available and by the way I should stress that as I understand it was an","start_time_text":"5:25"},{"start_ms":"330280","end_ms":"338280","text":"intentional act on his part to make it publicly available to me it would be very different if he uh used some kind","start_time_text":"5:30"},{"start_ms":"338280","end_ms":"347080","text":"of controls to try to constrain the distribution to a small set of trusted","start_time_text":"5:38"},{"start_ms":"347080","end_ms":"354319","text":"family members friends Etc people who had opted in to receive this um but it","start_time_text":"5:47"},{"start_ms":"354319","end_ms":"359880","text":"but putting it out there in public and knowing that his students could see it","start_time_text":"5:54"},{"start_ms":"359880","end_ms":"365720","text":"his colleagues could see it that um parents of students at the University","start_time_text":"5:59"},{"start_ms":"365720","end_ms":"371680","text":"could see it uh seems to me to be um","start_time_text":"6:05"},{"start_ms":"371680","end_ms":"378319","text":"recklessly uh tampering with and endangering the reputation of the","start_time_text":"6:11"},{"start_ms":"378319","end_ms":"385000","text":"university and indeed his own reputation I say that somewhat regretfully Mark and","start_time_text":"6:18"},{"start_ms":"385000","end_ms":"391680","text":"Holly because you know ideally people should be be able to separate what he","start_time_text":"6:25"},{"start_ms":"391680","end_ms":"397840","text":"does as a hobby and what he does with his poty with his wife with other","start_time_text":"6:31"},{"start_ms":"397840","end_ms":"405199","text":"consenting adults um from what he does as um academic but realistically in the","start_time_text":"6:37"},{"start_ms":"405199","end_ms":"413479","text":"United States there're in such um there there are so many taboos about sex you","start_time_text":"6:45"},{"start_ms":"413479","end_ms":"420080","text":"know from all across the political Spectrum from left to right that um","start_time_text":"6:53"},{"start_ms":"420080","end_ms":"426960","text":"you have to know that you are at least taking a huge risk that you are going to","start_time_text":"7:00"},{"start_ms":"426960","end_ms":"433479","text":"be causing problems for your University and that the university is come back to","start_time_text":"7:06"},{"start_ms":"433479","end_ms":"440720","text":"bite you I think I haven't persuaded myself through the counterargument um because I guess I","start_time_text":"7:13"},{"start_ms":"440720","end_ms":"445759","text":"think you do have a right to exercise bad judgment in your private capacity in","start_time_text":"7:20"},{"start_ms":"445759","end_ms":"451720","text":"terms of the reputational interests of the University that's something that the","start_time_text":"7:25"},{"start_ms":"451720","end_ms":"459919","text":"aaup the American Association of University professors expressly took into account when it um created its","start_time_text":"7:31"},{"start_ms":"459919","end_ms":"466319","text":"standard many many years ago this goes back to the 1915 and then to 1940 uh","start_time_text":"7:39"},{"start_ms":"466319","end_ms":"473360","text":"somewhat uh updated but basically um they said that if the university can use","start_time_text":"7:46"},{"start_ms":"473360","end_ms":"478599","text":"the argument that what the professor says and his her their private capacity","start_time_text":"7:53"},{"start_ms":"478599","end_ms":"485280","text":"damages the reputation of the University that's an exception that swallows the rule that's basically anything that's","start_time_text":"7:58"},{"start_ms":"485280","end_ms":"490840","text":"controversial or unpopular can be sanctioned it becomes a tool for","start_time_text":"8:05"},{"start_ms":"490840","end_ms":"495879","text":"Viewpoint discrimination which is completely antithetical to academic","start_time_text":"8:10"},{"start_ms":"495879","end_ms":"503879","text":"freedom so I think he has a good first Amendment um clle but I'd love to hear","start_time_text":"8:15"},{"start_ms":"503879","end_ms":"512399","text":"what both of you think and what the strongest counterarguments you can make are I mean I had a similar um reaction","start_time_text":"8:23"},{"start_ms":"512399","end_ms":"517680","text":"to your counter case which is like somebody in that position needs to have","start_time_text":"8:32"},{"start_ms":"517680","end_ms":"524279","text":"a lot of Gravitas and doing that or making that um something that students","start_time_text":"8:37"},{"start_ms":"524279","end_ms":"531040","text":"and members of the public can see it just opens you up to ridicule in a way that is very undermining of the gravitas","start_time_text":"8:44"},{"start_ms":"531040","end_ms":"537160","text":"of that position so I think I was sort of thinking about it yeah setting aside","start_time_text":"8:51"},{"start_ms":"537160","end_ms":"543920","text":"his kind of private right to expression like if he did it under a pudim or say","start_time_text":"8:57"},{"start_ms":"543920","end_ms":"550839","text":"the difference between him being known to be a swinger like someone publishes a student media article about him that's","start_time_text":"9:03"},{"start_ms":"550839","end_ms":"556720","text":"based on a rumor but there's not a video that anyone can go and watch I think it's really like the yeah the video","start_time_text":"9:10"},{"start_ms":"556720","end_ms":"562839","text":"being available it seems very undermining of his status and I think I","start_time_text":"9:16"},{"start_ms":"562839","end_ms":"569880","text":"I personally love a public private distinction like I think people should keep their sex stuff and Kinks and","start_time_text":"9:22"},{"start_ms":"569880","end_ms":"577200","text":"they're I don't want to see my colleagues penis like I I feel that should be like separate Realms from the","start_time_text":"9:29"},{"start_ms":"577200","end_ms":"583640","text":"professional or the workplace um so yeah I did think it was really poor judgment and I didn't think it was obviously","start_time_text":"9:37"},{"start_ms":"583640","end_ms":"589480","text":"wrong that he was dismissed for that reason so I suppose what makes me uncomfortable about it is we try and","start_time_text":"9:43"},{"start_ms":"589480","end_ms":"595200","text":"generate a general principle where we say it's okay to have this person fired","start_time_text":"9:49"},{"start_ms":"595200","end_ms":"602120","text":"and let's say the principle is it undermines their gravitus imagine that he did something else which was that uh","start_time_text":"9:55"},{"start_ms":"602120","end_ms":"607720","text":"he played the trombone very badly um and was quite excited about it and produced","start_time_text":"10:02"},{"start_ms":"607720","end_ms":"615600","text":"all these videos of it on YouTube and you can see him playing the trombone really badly or he was in a terrible improv you know outfit and they just not","start_time_text":"10:07"},{"start_ms":"615600","end_ms":"622959","text":"very good at telling jokes and you know it undermined his authority in some way and people didn't take him that seriously if I if I may say so Mark","start_time_text":"10:15"},{"start_ms":"622959","end_ms":"629399","text":"those are even uh weaker in terms of the Free Speech counterveiling free speech","start_time_text":"10:22"},{"start_ms":"629399","end_ms":"635200","text":"concern right yes um in other words we we would sort of say well it's not clear","start_time_text":"10:29"},{"start_ms":"635200","end_ms":"640639","text":"what value necessarily add with your bad improv or your bad trombone playing you know what's interesting about this case","start_time_text":"10:35"},{"start_ms":"640639","end_ms":"647639","text":"is that it's not just a sex account um you know there's all this discussion about veganism they interview the porn","start_time_text":"10:40"},{"start_ms":"647639","end_ms":"655320","text":"stars that they have sex with and they talk about questions around exploitation they're also um in their 60s so it's a","start_time_text":"10:47"},{"start_ms":"655320","end_ms":"661160","text":"certain kind of niche in a way I think his line is publicly has been to say well we're doing something different","start_time_text":"10:55"},{"start_ms":"661160","end_ms":"667839","text":"we're not the smut that you would find Elsewhere on the internet we're you know celebrating a healthy marriage um and so","start_time_text":"11:01"},{"start_ms":"667839","end_ms":"673079","text":"there's some political content in that um I I think it does boil down to a","start_time_text":"11:07"},{"start_ms":"673079","end_ms":"678120","text":"prudishness um and I wonder why we have this special caveat for sex so if we","start_time_text":"11:13"},{"start_ms":"678120","end_ms":"684800","text":"think there's nothing wrong with a married couple having sex I think everyone's going to agree to that um is","start_time_text":"11:18"},{"start_ms":"684800","end_ms":"691240","text":"there anything wrong with them privately recording it for their own purposes I would think not uh it is available","start_time_text":"11:24"},{"start_ms":"691240","end_ms":"698680","text":"online but it's only really available by those who choose to see it so they're not putting a bullboards um and forcing","start_time_text":"11:31"},{"start_ms":"698680","end_ms":"704040","text":"any of their students to watch it or students on the campus um there's a you","start_time_text":"11:38"},{"start_ms":"704040","end_ms":"709720","text":"know kind of sexfree version available on YouTube if you really want to find out about the cooking stuff um and then","start_time_text":"11:44"},{"start_ms":"709720","end_ms":"715800","text":"you've got to do a bit of work if you want to see them having sex so it seems like it's quite opt in um and it might","start_time_text":"11:49"},{"start_ms":"715800","end_ms":"721120","text":"be that the person who opts in then feels very offended of after having gone through all the you know protocols to to","start_time_text":"11:55"},{"start_ms":"721120","end_ms":"727800","text":"log in and says now I can't take you seriously but it seems like you have the same view about like women in positions","start_time_text":"12:01"},{"start_ms":"727800","end_ms":"733959","text":"of authority and only fans for example so I think that's an interesting question if you think about when your","start_time_text":"12:07"},{"start_ms":"733959","end_ms":"739440","text":"book is written in 95 um RAR the pornography industry happens in a particular way which is you've got let's","start_time_text":"12:13"},{"start_ms":"739440","end_ms":"744519","text":"say big studios um with a bevy of paid porn stars producing stuff in a","start_time_text":"12:19"},{"start_ms":"744519","end_ms":"751519","text":"production line and now it seems like what you have is really utter uh who produce pornography on their own um so","start_time_text":"12:24"},{"start_ms":"751519","end_ms":"756639","text":"you don't have any of the exploitation concerns um it's a sort of upin model it seems like a way that people have","start_time_text":"12:31"},{"start_ms":"756639","end_ms":"762680","text":"generated a sizable income for themselves um I mean it strikes me as","start_time_text":"12:36"},{"start_ms":"762680","end_ms":"768199","text":"pretty terrible to fire someone because they're running an only fans account I also wonder if it's one of those things","start_time_text":"12:42"},{"start_ms":"768199","end_ms":"774000","text":"where it's a taboo that maybe only affects a certain generation so that it might be very common place among","start_time_text":"12:48"},{"start_ms":"774000","end_ms":"780560","text":"20-year-olds to have you know um some sexually uh rousing content where","start_time_text":"12:54"},{"start_ms":"780560","end_ms":"786000","text":"they're sitting on cakes or I don't know have a shoe fetish thing and you know that's how they make a bit of extra","start_time_text":"13:00"},{"start_ms":"786000","end_ms":"792680","text":"money and all their friends do it no one thinks anything of it um it strikes me as less of a concern than you know you","start_time_text":"13:06"},{"start_ms":"792680","end_ms":"799760","text":"work for um one of the production so interesting because uh every rational","start_time_text":"13:12"},{"start_ms":"799760","end_ms":"806120","text":"point that all of us has made in my view weighs in favor of the Free Speech","start_time_text":"13:19"},{"start_ms":"806120","end_ms":"812600","text":"rights I'm sorry I interjected when you were talking mark but the the point I was going to make you then elaborated on","start_time_text":"13:26"},{"start_ms":"812600","end_ms":"817760","text":"which is um that there is a greater Free","start_time_text":"13:32"},{"start_ms":"817760","end_ms":"826320","text":"Speech heft it seems to me a weighing in support of the expression by this fired","start_time_text":"13:37"},{"start_ms":"826320","end_ms":"835120","text":"academic than playing the playing the tuba um and uh conversely there it's","start_time_text":"13:46"},{"start_ms":"835120","end_ms":"843040","text":"very very hard other than the special way that our society I say our because","start_time_text":"13:55"},{"start_ms":"843040","end_ms":"849880","text":"I'm talking about the United States I really don't know about um in fact for my European friends they mock the","start_time_text":"14:03"},{"start_ms":"849880","end_ms":"855320","text":"Americans sexual prudery so I I've come to believe that there's something that's","start_time_text":"14:09"},{"start_ms":"855320","end_ms":"861519","text":"unique to the United States about it uh an American humorist whom I quote in my","start_time_text":"14:15"},{"start_ms":"861519","end_ms":"866800","text":"book quite a few years ago during one of congress's attacks on sexually explicit","start_time_text":"14:21"},{"start_ms":"866800","end_ms":"873360","text":"art uh said no my ancestors were Puritans from England who came to the","start_time_text":"14:26"},{"start_ms":"873360","end_ms":"881199","text":"United States in the 17th century hoping to find more restrictions on sexual expression than they were leaving um","start_time_text":"14:33"},{"start_ms":"881199","end_ms":"887519","text":"behind so other than that I really can't think of a rational reason to","start_time_text":"14:41"},{"start_ms":"887519","end_ms":"895040","text":"distinguish it but the the the separate treatment of sex it pervades not only","start_time_text":"14:47"},{"start_ms":"895040","end_ms":"904360","text":"American culture but also American law um the so-called obscenity exception","start_time_text":"14:55"},{"start_ms":"904360","end_ms":"910720","text":"for a certain category of sexually oriented expression is now and for quite","start_time_text":"15:04"},{"start_ms":"910720","end_ms":"918959","text":"a few years has been the only content based exception to free speech that the","start_time_text":"15:10"},{"start_ms":"918959","end_ms":"925320","text":"Supreme Court tolerates starting in the middle of the 20th century the Supreme","start_time_text":"15:18"},{"start_ms":"925320","end_ms":"932120","text":"Court systematically overturned all of the former exceptions to free speech","start_time_text":"15:25"},{"start_ms":"932120","end_ms":"938720","text":"protection for various kinds of previously disfavored content you know","start_time_text":"15:32"},{"start_ms":"938720","end_ms":"944240","text":"they didn't like the extremist message or the terrorist message or the hateful","start_time_text":"15:38"},{"start_ms":"944240","end_ms":"950639","text":"message or the commercial message all of those distinctions are gone now uh and","start_time_text":"15:44"},{"start_ms":"950639","end_ms":"956199","text":"the only restrictions that can be imposed are those that take into account","start_time_text":"15:50"},{"start_ms":"956199","end_ms":"961480","text":"not only the content of the speech but also that it occurs in a certain context","start_time_text":"15:56"},{"start_ms":"961480","end_ms":"968399","text":"where it directly specifically causes or threatens certain imminent serious har","start_time_text":"16:01"},{"start_ms":"968399","end_ms":"973920","text":"and when the Supreme Court last reexamined the obscenity exception uh","start_time_text":"16:08"},{"start_ms":"973920","end_ms":"979800","text":"and upheld it by a five to4 margin this was back in","start_time_text":"16:13"},{"start_ms":"979800","end_ms":"984920","text":"1973 so the court has continued to become much more speech protective since","start_time_text":"16:19"},{"start_ms":"984920","end_ms":"992720","text":"then but back then even four of them said there's no justification for this exception and the five in the majority","start_time_text":"16:24"},{"start_ms":"992720","end_ms":"999639","text":"expressly recognize that there's no evidence that obscene or this","start_time_text":"16:32"},{"start_ms":"999639","end_ms":"
