This BBC World Service podcast episode explores the complex question of whether zoos should exist. The discussion delves into the history of zoos, their evolution, current practices, and the arguments for and against their continued operation. It features interviews with experts and activists representing diverse perspectives.
Please find the transcript below. Note that it is very long, so I've included it as is, without any editing for brevity or clarity. If you have specific questions or need excerpts from a particular section, please let me know.
[{"start_ms":"440","end_ms":"2000","text":" \nHello. It's Hannah Gelbart here.","start_time_text":"0:00"},{"start_ms":"2000","end_ms":"5240","text":"And this is What in the World\nfrom the BBC World Service.","start_time_text":"0:02"},{"start_ms":"5240","end_ms":"8280","text":"Going to the zoo to see a lion\nor tiger or a giraffe","start_time_text":"0:05"},{"start_ms":"8280","end_ms":"10519","text":"can be awesome for us humans.","start_time_text":"0:08"},{"start_ms":"10520","end_ms":"12320","text":"But what's it like for the animals?","start_time_text":"0:10"},{"start_ms":"12320","end_ms":"14639","text":"What kind of impact\ndoes it have on them?","start_time_text":"0:12"},{"start_ms":"14640","end_ms":"16960","text":"That is what we're going to be diving\ninto today,","start_time_text":"0:14"},{"start_ms":"16960","end_ms":"20000","text":"as we ask, should zoos exist?","start_time_text":"0:16"},{"start_ms":"23800","end_ms":"26599","text":"Here to talk us through it\nis our resident animal expert,","start_time_text":"0:23"},{"start_ms":"26600","end_ms":"28760","text":"William Lee Adams,\nfrom the What in the World team. Hey.","start_time_text":"0:26"},{"start_ms":"28760","end_ms":"29640","text":"Hi, Hannah.","start_time_text":"0:28"},{"start_ms":"29640","end_ms":"32680","text":"First of all, can you give me\na brief history of zoos?","start_time_text":"0:29"},{"start_ms":"32680","end_ms":"34960","text":"Like, where did the idea come from?\nSure.","start_time_text":"0:32"},{"start_ms":"34960","end_ms":"37040","text":"So I think we need to start\nwith a concept.","start_time_text":"0:34"},{"start_ms":"37040","end_ms":"39240","text":"And that's man's control of nature.","start_time_text":"0:37"},{"start_ms":"39240","end_ms":"41760","text":"If you look\nat ancient art from Mesopotamia","start_time_text":"0:39"},{"start_ms":"41760","end_ms":"44199","text":"or modern day Iraq, Greece, China,","start_time_text":"0:41"},{"start_ms":"44200","end_ms":"47720","text":"and even through to the 18th and 19th\ncentury portraiture in England","start_time_text":"0:44"},{"start_ms":"47720","end_ms":"52640","text":"and France, you see royals, emperors,\nrulers killing animals.","start_time_text":"0:47"},{"start_ms":"52640","end_ms":"54320","text":"This is to say I have authority.","start_time_text":"0:52"},{"start_ms":"54320","end_ms":"57440","text":"If I can kill a bear,\nthen I can protect my people.","start_time_text":"0:54"},{"start_ms":"57440","end_ms":"61039","text":"But then what if you keep the bear\nalive. What if you collect them?","start_time_text":"0:57"},{"start_ms":"61040","end_ms":"63720","text":"That kind of creates\na different narrative.","start_time_text":"1:01"},{"start_ms":"63720","end_ms":"67760","text":"Here you see it as a source of strength,\nsaying, we're wealthy, we have power.","start_time_text":"1:03"},{"start_ms":"67760","end_ms":"70520","text":"We can exchange these\nas gifts to other nations.","start_time_text":"1:07"},{"start_ms":"70520","end_ms":"74079","text":"So in the 13th century, here\nin England, King Henry the Third,","start_time_text":"1:10"},{"start_ms":"74080","end_ms":"77080","text":"he received a polar bear\nfrom the King of Norway.","start_time_text":"1:14"},{"start_ms":"77080","end_ms":"80440","text":"He received three lions\nfrom the Holy Roman Emperor,","start_time_text":"1:17"},{"start_ms":"80440","end_ms":"83400","text":"and later he came into the possession\nof an African elephant.","start_time_text":"1:20"},{"start_ms":"83400","end_ms":"85440","text":"All of these were stored\nat the Tower of London,","start_time_text":"1:23"},{"start_ms":"85440","end_ms":"88000","text":"creating sort\nof a personal menagerie.","start_time_text":"1:25"},{"start_ms":"88000","end_ms":"91640","text":"And I need to point out, it's not\njust male rulers who are doing this.","start_time_text":"1:28"},{"start_ms":"91640","end_ms":"94800","text":"If you look at Queen Charlotte,\nshe famously had a collection","start_time_text":"1:31"},{"start_ms":"94800","end_ms":"98760","text":"of 18 kangaroos she kept\nnear her cottage at Kew,","start_time_text":"1:34"},{"start_ms":"98760","end_ms":"102160","text":"and her love of animals was so famous\nthat actually,","start_time_text":"1:38"},{"start_ms":"102160","end_ms":"105600","text":"in Bridgerton, the Netflix series,\nshe was portrayed fictionally.","start_time_text":"1:42"},{"start_ms":"105600","end_ms":"106880","text":"And you saw her zebras.","start_time_text":"1:45"},{"start_ms":"106880","end_ms":"110600","text":"She must have had a big cottage to fit\nin 20 kangaroos, massive paddocks.","start_time_text":"1:46"},{"start_ms":"110600","end_ms":"113439","text":"We still see that idea, don't we?\nLike panda diplomacy,","start_time_text":"1:50"},{"start_ms":"113440","end_ms":"116800","text":"the idea of countries giving\nother countries animals.","start_time_text":"1:53"},{"start_ms":"116800","end_ms":"119280","text":"But that's not what I think of\nwhen I think of zoos today.","start_time_text":"1:56"},{"start_ms":"119280","end_ms":"121280","text":"I think of kind of animals in cages.","start_time_text":"1:59"},{"start_ms":"121280","end_ms":"125159","text":"How did that concept evolve\ninto what we have today?","start_time_text":"2:01"},{"start_ms":"125160","end_ms":"129360","text":"Sure. So a very canned history\nwould be in the late 18th century","start_time_text":"2:05"},{"start_ms":"129360","end_ms":"133120","text":"you had a zoo open in Austria. The\npublic wanted to learn about animals.","start_time_text":"2:09"},{"start_ms":"133120","end_ms":"134720","text":"Then you had the French Revolution.","start_time_text":"2:13"},{"start_ms":"134720","end_ms":"138080","text":"You had revolutionaries ransacking\nthe palaces of the king,","start_time_text":"2:14"},{"start_ms":"138080","end_ms":"140600","text":"the queen, aristocrats,\nand taking some of these animals","start_time_text":"2:18"},{"start_ms":"140600","end_ms":"143760","text":"to create a public zoo.\nThis is considered by many,","start_time_text":"2:20"},{"start_ms":"143760","end_ms":"146840","text":"along with the London Zoo,\nthe world's first modern zoo.","start_time_text":"2:23"},{"start_ms":"146840","end_ms":"149480","text":"Now, by 2025 standards, it's not","start_time_text":"2:26"},{"start_ms":"149480","end_ms":"153440","text":"modern. Animals were kept in cages,\nthey were given very little room.","start_time_text":"2:29"},{"start_ms":"153440","end_ms":"157920","text":"There was very little acknowledgement\nof their emotions, of their feelings.","start_time_text":"2:33"},{"start_ms":"157920","end_ms":"160560","text":"They were there as exhibits,\nas if in a museum,","start_time_text":"2:37"},{"start_ms":"160560","end_ms":"164000","text":"like the skeletal remains\nof a dinosaur, for people to look at,","start_time_text":"2:40"},{"start_ms":"164000","end_ms":"167400","text":"for human curiosity.\nThen you have World War Two.","start_time_text":"2:44"},{"start_ms":"167400","end_ms":"170159","text":"People become more aware\nof animal welfare","start_time_text":"2:47"},{"start_ms":"170160","end_ms":"174560","text":"after seeing so many zoos destroyed,\nand that was a huge turning point.","start_time_text":"2:50"},{"start_ms":"174560","end_ms":"177319","text":"It raised awareness\nabout the fact that animals feel,","start_time_text":"2:54"},{"start_ms":"177320","end_ms":"179760","text":"animals suffer\nand animals endure trauma,","start_time_text":"2:57"},{"start_ms":"179760","end_ms":"184000","text":"and that has led to a full spate of\ndifferent types of zoos, urban zoos,","start_time_text":"2:59"},{"start_ms":"184000","end_ms":"187360","text":"petting zoos, safari parks where\nyou drive through game reserves,","start_time_text":"3:04"},{"start_ms":"187360","end_ms":"190680","text":"where ecosystems are protected\nand illegal hunting is not allowed.","start_time_text":"3:07"},{"start_ms":"190680","end_ms":"193840","text":"How many people visit zoos nowadays?","start_time_text":"3:10"},{"start_ms":"193840","end_ms":"197239","text":"Like how popular are they?\nSo the Association of Zoos","start_time_text":"3:13"},{"start_ms":"197240","end_ms":"199600","text":"and Aquariums,\nthey're based in the United States.","start_time_text":"3:17"},{"start_ms":"199600","end_ms":"202640","text":"They say there are\nmore than 10,000 zoos","start_time_text":"3:19"},{"start_ms":"202640","end_ms":"205880","text":"and they're visited by\n700 million people a year.","start_time_text":"3:22"},{"start_ms":"205880","end_ms":"208960","text":"So if there are eight billion people\nin the world, that's around one out","start_time_text":"3:25"},{"start_ms":"208960","end_ms":"213400","text":"of every 11, one out of every 12 people\non earth visiting a zoo every year.","start_time_text":"3:28"},{"start_ms":"213400","end_ms":"216920","text":"Now, I should point out that these\nestimates are very hard to come by.","start_time_text":"3:33"},{"start_ms":"216920","end_ms":"219280","text":"The fact is,\npeople define zoos in different ways.","start_time_text":"3:36"},{"start_ms":"219280","end_ms":"222040","text":"You have public zoos, you have\nurban zoos, you have petting zoos,","start_time_text":"3:39"},{"start_ms":"222040","end_ms":"226040","text":"you have circus like roadside\nattractions, you have aquariums.","start_time_text":"3:42"},{"start_ms":"226040","end_ms":"229640","text":"Some people don't count aquariums if\nthey're not connected to a formal zoo.","start_time_text":"3:46"},{"start_ms":"229640","end_ms":"232120","text":"It's very,\nvery grey and difficult to define.","start_time_text":"3:49"},{"start_ms":"232120","end_ms":"234680","text":"But one source I found,\nthe World Population Review.","start_time_text":"3:52"},{"start_ms":"234680","end_ms":"239359","text":"They say that the United States has\nthe most zoos, 350, followed by Germany","start_time_text":"3:54"},{"start_ms":"239360","end_ms":"241440","text":"interestingly,\nwith around 316,","start_time_text":"3:59"},{"start_ms":"241440","end_ms":"244720","text":"I believe, Europe accounts for about\nhalf of all the zoos in the world.","start_time_text":"4:01"},{"start_ms":"244720","end_ms":"247160","text":"You touched on education. What\nare some of the other big reasons","start_time_text":"4:04"},{"start_ms":"247160","end_ms":"249480","text":"that people think\nthat zoos should exist?","start_time_text":"4:07"},{"start_ms":"249480","end_ms":"250519","text":"Yes, indeed.","start_time_text":"4:09"},{"start_ms":"250520","end_ms":"254480","text":"Education is the primary reason that\nzoos give for why they should exist.","start_time_text":"4:10"},{"start_ms":"254480","end_ms":"258160","text":"The fact is, school children all over\nthe world are often bussed to zoos.","start_time_text":"4:14"},{"start_ms":"258160","end_ms":"260600","text":"I remember\nmyself going to see lowland gorillas","start_time_text":"4:18"},{"start_ms":"260600","end_ms":"264560","text":"at Zoo Atlanta every single year, and\nthe point of this was to introduce us","start_time_text":"4:20"},{"start_ms":"264560","end_ms":"266720","text":"to conservation.\nWe heard the animal stories.","start_time_text":"4:24"},{"start_ms":"266720","end_ms":"269480","text":"We started to learn\nwhy animals are endangered,","start_time_text":"4:26"},{"start_ms":"269480","end_ms":"274520","text":"and zoos were inspiring young people\nto respect nature, to love nature.","start_time_text":"4:29"},{"start_ms":"274520","end_ms":"277280","text":"A second point is\nthat zoos often invest","start_time_text":"4:34"},{"start_ms":"277280","end_ms":"280040","text":"in research programs\nthat help endangered animals.","start_time_text":"4:37"},{"start_ms":"280040","end_ms":"284960","text":"Now, as we know, pandas are\nnotoriously reluctant to mate.","start_time_text":"4:40"},{"start_ms":"284960","end_ms":"287000","text":"Um, the women have","start_time_text":"4:44"},{"start_ms":"287000","end_ms":"290440","text":"Sorry. The female pandas have\na narrow window of fertility.","start_time_text":"4:47"},{"start_ms":"290440","end_ms":"293080","text":"They're solitary creatures,\nand it takes two","start_time_text":"4:50"},{"start_ms":"293080","end_ms":"295120","text":"to tango when it comes\nto reproduction.","start_time_text":"4:53"},{"start_ms":"295120","end_ms":"298320","text":"But a lot of money in zoos,\nit goes to sort of find ways","start_time_text":"4:55"},{"start_ms":"298320","end_ms":"301080","text":"to encourage these animals to mate.","start_time_text":"4:58"},{"start_ms":"301080","end_ms":"305439","text":"A third reason that zoos give is\nthat they actually contribute funds","start_time_text":"5:01"},{"start_ms":"305440","end_ms":"309680","text":"to breeding programs, which can help\nreintroduce animals to the wild.","start_time_text":"5:05"},{"start_ms":"309680","end_ms":"313000","text":"A famous example would be\nthe Arabian oryx.","start_time_text":"5:09"},{"start_ms":"313000","end_ms":"316040","text":"This is a type of antelope\nthat's native to Saudi Arabia,","start_time_text":"5:13"},{"start_ms":"316040","end_ms":"318800","text":"on the Arabian Peninsula\nand neighboring countries.","start_time_text":"5:16"},{"start_ms":"318800","end_ms":"321039","text":"It actually went extinct in the wild.","start_time_text":"5:18"},{"start_ms":"321040","end_ms":"324600","text":"But in the 1970s, because of\nsuccessful zoo breeding programs,","start_time_text":"5:21"},{"start_ms":"324600","end_ms":"327160","text":"it was reintroduced into the wild.","start_time_text":"5:24"},{"start_ms":"327160","end_ms":"330160","text":"And the last point we often hear\nis conservation.","start_time_text":"5:27"},{"start_ms":"330160","end_ms":"334080","text":"The fact is, many zoos skim some\nof their profits, or they raise money","start_time_text":"5:30"},{"start_ms":"334080","end_ms":"337479","text":"in other ways to contribute\nto wildlife conservation abroad,","start_time_text":"5:34"},{"start_ms":"337480","end_ms":"340000","text":"in countries that can't always afford\nto do it themselves.","start_time_text":"5:37"},{"start_ms":"340000","end_ms":"343600","text":"What does conservation funding\nactually look like in practice?","start_time_text":"5:40"},{"start_ms":"343600","end_ms":"348040","text":"Well, actually, I spoke to someone about\nthat very topic. This is Tonya Lander.","start_time_text":"5:43"},{"start_ms":"348040","end_ms":"351400","text":"She's a lecturer in biology\nat the University of Oxford.","start_time_text":"5:48"},{"start_ms":"351400","end_ms":"353720","text":"I think they do play\nan important role in conservation,","start_time_text":"5:51"},{"start_ms":"353720","end_ms":"358600","text":"whether they're providing a venue\nthat inspires the next generation\nof conservationists,","start_time_text":"5:53"},{"start_ms":"358600","end_ms":"362440","text":"or whether they're actually actively\nsupporting researchers in the field,","start_time_text":"5:58"},{"start_ms":"362440","end_ms":"366840","text":"or whether they're maintaining captive\npopulations of endangered species","start_time_text":"6:02"},{"start_ms":"366840","end_ms":"369320","text":"and helping them to hopefully one day\nbe introduced.","start_time_text":"6:06"},{"start_ms":"369320","end_ms":"371520","text":"And there are actually\nreally nice examples","start_time_text":"6:09"},{"start_ms":"371520","end_ms":"373720","text":"of reintroduction projects\nthat have happened.","start_time_text":"6:11"},{"start_ms":"373720","end_ms":"376280","text":"The most famous,\nof course, is the California condor,","start_time_text":"6:13"},{"start_ms":"376280","end_ms":"380960","text":"where the San Diego Zoo took the\npopulation of only 23 in the wild,","start_time_text":"6:16"},{"start_ms":"380960","end_ms":"383039","text":"and now there are more than 400\nin the wild,","start_time_text":"6:20"},{"start_ms":"383040","end_ms":"387120","text":"over the course of the last 40 years\nof conservation efforts from that zoo.","start_time_text":"6:23"},{"start_ms":"387120","end_ms":"390479","text":"And then another one is\nthe golden lion tamarin,","start_time_text":"6:27"},{"start_ms":"390480","end_ms":"393840","text":"where they were critically endangered\nin the wild. Then,","start_time_text":"6:30"},{"start_ms":"393840","end_ms":"398400","text":"through a joint project between the\nSmithsonian and Brazilian researchers,","start_time_text":"6:33"},{"start_ms":"398400","end_ms":"402479","text":"they've managed to significantly\nincrease the wild population,","start_time_text":"6:38"},{"start_ms":"402480","end_ms":"406840","text":"but also have helped to push forward\nthe protection of a big area of habitat.","start_time_text":"6:42"},{"start_ms":"406840","end_ms":"410960","text":"So there is evidence that\nzoos have helped with conservation,","start_time_text":"6:46"},{"start_ms":"410960","end_ms":"413919","text":"with endangered species, education.","start_time_text":"6:50"},{"start_ms":"413920","end_ms":"416600","text":"Lots of young schoolchildren go\nand visit them,","start_time_text":"6:53"},{"start_ms":"416600","end_ms":"419080","text":"and maybe that'll be\ntheir first interaction","start_time_text":"6:56"},{"start_ms":"419080","end_ms":"421960","text":"with these kind of animals,\neven if they're not in the wild.","start_time_text":"6:59"},{"start_ms":"421960","end_ms":"425919","text":"So that can be a really educational,\ninspirational experience.","start_time_text":"7:01"},{"start_ms":"425920","end_ms":"429520","text":"But now we're going to hear some\nof the arguments against zoos.","start_time_text":"7:05"},{"start_ms":"429520","end_ms":"432840","text":"First of all,\nthis is Nikita, who is 19 and","start_time_text":"7:09"},{"start_ms":"432840","end_ms":"435160","text":"she's an animal rights activist\nfrom India.","start_time_text":"7:12"},{"start_ms":"435160","end_ms":"438160","text":"So I don't think zoos should exist\nfor several reasons.","start_time_text":"7:15"},{"start_ms":"438160","end_ms":"441680","text":"The first one being zoos' detrimental\nimpact on both the physical","start_time_text":"7:18"},{"start_ms":"441680","end_ms":"443880","text":"and psychological health of animals.","start_time_text":"7:21"},{"start_ms":"443880","end_ms":"447280","text":"Many studies and research have shown\nthat many animals in zoos","start_time_text":"7:23"},{"start_ms":"447280","end_ms":"450880","text":"and aquariums display\nabnormal behaviours like head bobbing,","start_time_text":"7:27"},{"start_ms":"450880","end_ms":"454640","text":"pacing, stereotypical behaviors,\nsigns of mental distress.","start_time_text":"7:30"},{"start_ms":"454640","end_ms":"458200","text":"The second reason, I would say,\nis that zoos cannot mimic","start_time_text":"7:34"},{"start_ms":"458200","end_ms":"461120","text":"the natural habitat of animals\nin the wild.","start_time_text":"7:38"},{"start_ms":"461120","end_ms":"463600","text":"The primary example is space.\nThe fourth point.","start_time_text":"7:41"},{"start_ms":"463600","end_ms":"467440","text":"The third point, I would say, is that\nzoos are not always conservational tools","start_time_text":"7:43"},{"start_ms":"467440","end_ms":"471320","text":"like believed reports by Born Free,\nand many other studies show","start_time_text":"7:47"},{"start_ms":"471320","end_ms":"474920","text":"that only ten to 25% of animals,\nat least in the UK,","start_time_text":"7:51"},{"start_ms":"474920","end_ms":"480160","text":"are in captivity or actually on\nthe IUCN Red list. The rest of them,","start_time_text":"7:54"},{"start_ms":"480160","end_ms":"482960","text":"more than half of them, are actually\non the least concerned section.","start_time_text":"8:00"},{"start_ms":"482960","end_ms":"485680","text":"So the money is not going\ntowards conservation, it's going more","start_time_text":"8:02"},{"start_ms":"485680","end_ms":"488759","text":"towards profit driven schemes.\nSo, Hannah, as you heard from Nikita","start_time_text":"8:05"},{"start_ms":"488760","end_ms":"493200","text":"passions run really high and there\nare countless arguments against zoos,","start_time_text":"8:08"},{"start_ms":"493200","end_ms":"496080","text":"but I want to isolate\nthe three most common.","start_time_text":"8:13"},{"start_ms":"496080","end_ms":"498599","text":"The first is entertainment.\nThere are a lot of people","start_time_text":"8:16"},{"start_ms":"498600","end_ms":"502120","text":"who do not think animals should\nbe used as forms of entertainment.","start_time_text":"8:18"},{"start_ms":"502120","end_ms":"506880","text":"They are taken from the wild or indeed\nbred in captivity to serve humans.","start_time_text":"8:22"},{"start_ms":"506880","end_ms":"509960","text":"Again, a continuation\nof this idea of animals as a","start_time_text":"8:26"},{"start_ms":"509960","end_ms":"512200","text":"as a curiosity for human enjoyment.","start_time_text":"8:29"},{"start_ms":"512200","end_ms":"514880","text":"Sometimes you'll see\nroadside animal attractions","start_time_text":"8:32"},{"start_ms":"