This video features a conversation between Amit Patel and Chris Coleridge about entrepreneurship, focusing on the evolving skill sets needed in venture building and innovation ecosystems. The discussion explores changes in entrepreneurship over the past 10-20 years, the role of social capital, and the importance of building a supportive network.
Please find the full transcript below:
[Music] okay welcome everyone to this latest episode of a conversation about design My name is Amit Patel I'm the creative director at Experience House And today I have the pleasure of welcome welcoming Professor Chris Cridge who is a distinguished academic and entrepreneur He currently serves as an associate professor of strategy and entrepreneurship at the Cambridge Judge Business School and a fellow at Wolson College So lots to explore there which I'd love to kind of find out more about as well He comes with a rich background that includes founding and scaling carbon 13 which is personally a journey kind of I've kind of watched unfold over the last few years which is a venture builder based uh focused on climate emergency solutions and he's bringing a wealth of experience in venture building venture creation innovation ecosystems and sustainable entrepreneurship as he's built this um along the way his work and I'm sure he'll explain in a lot more detail bridges the gap between academic theory and practical application and a big reason of why I wanted to kind of have him on the on the on the show is just to talk about the future of entrepreneurship and the evolving skill sets which I think come along in venture building innovation ecosystems uh and everything kind of in between Chris welcome Great to have you here What a pleasure Good to see you Yeah good to see you too I think the last time if I remember correctly it was probably about six years ago we grabbed a coffee or something like that and uh Yeah and a lot has changed since then as well A lot has happened indeed Yes indeed Um so Chris I think where it would be great to kind of start is you're obviously involved in so many different things I think it would just be great to hear from you like what is a typical day or a typical week look like for you like what are the different things you're doing and working on and and conversations let's just start from there and then we can unpack it Fantastic Well uh okay So I'm I'm an associate professor at the uh business school in the University of Cambridge and that means that I'm teaching about six modules a year to our MBA students executive MBA students uh masters in technology policy and masters in management students And so uh that is you know it's it's an exciting challenge every year and uh and with things changing so fast both uh in terms of technology and geo geopolitics at the moment uh that's uh you know kind of trying to stay uh stay stay current and stay uh you know at the at the at the frontier where you're going to be able to give insights to your students is uh is is a big uh is is a big part of my work Um but I'm past the point in my career where uh research is really and sort of publishing academic research is really a major focus I've I've published four articles in the last three years and that seemed like a kind of a good pace when some of my colleagues are trying to get five out a year Um and I devote most of my sort of non-eing time to trying to uh make some impact uh on on this on this world of ours um through what I guess I understand best which is technology innovation technology entrepreneurship Um I as you say I founded Carbon 13 uh back in 2019 took us a couple of years to raise the money uh I raised4 a half million pounds in corporate sponsorship from various corporates and uh we we then used that to incubate about 120 teams uh and uh during the time I was CEO up to autumn 2023 we made 64 preede investments in climate tech uh firms Um I I I stepped away from the project at that point and I have been working on something called faster climate impact Uh which is trying to sort of work at a different stage of the technology innovation process Uh the idea was a private equity fund to buy uh more mature climate tech businesses and bolt them together into vertically integrated chains Um I have to say we we haven't yet bolted any chains together Uh so the concept uh we're happy with the concept We've got a great team that that we've put together We're working away on our first transaction Um can't say too much about that but it is it is sort of inching uh in inching forward You know the idea is that you need synergies in order to make faster uh faster technology pro progress Um I'm involved in a bunch of other uh other projects I I I'm I'm reluctant to sort of just list them all because it's not going to be it's it's not going to be very conversational but the common thread is trying to take the understanding I developed as an academic about social networks social capital uh diffusion of innovations uh how uh sort of different uh elements of the innovation puzzle come together uh to to try to use this very privileged position I'm in at at Cambridge to try to make a difference Great Great Yeah And I've definitely seen kind of a lot of your like recent postings I think if I they're tend to be kind of around some of the the more individual kind of businesses or kind of ventures that you've kind of gotten involved in um you know more recently Um yeah which is kind of again I guess a fascinating kind of thing to read about as well Um thank you you know if I if I look at like you know your whole kind of not just carbon 13 but everything you've been doing for that even if it's the research and kind of like now what you're doing now in terms of getting it more involved and say with kind of more the individual businesses I would love to kind of start with a kind of a big question What do you think has changed in terms of kind of entrepreneurship say over the last 10 20 years has do have you noticed any kind of fundamental shifts happening well I have I have and and um I think I I think about this one a lot the when I started teaching entrepreneurship which is 19 years ago uh I would say that in order to be an effective entrepreneur you needed to understand you know as close to 360 degrees everything about business as you could possibly manage right um and uh partly as a function of we just need more entrepreneurship and there's just more and more problems to be solved that are kind of entrepreneurship is the right tool in the box to be uh to be going after those problems Um and partly as a function of the sort of modularity of digital technologies uh what I see is people able to kind of make steps on the the the journey of entrepreneurship uh without that 360deree understanding right and that and there's both you know there's there's a kind of pull factor saying hey you know if you're if you're a talented uh creative person uh driven person you should uh you should just jump in the water and and start swimming Um and look you'll you'll put together the necessary advisory Yeah network as you go Um uh you know and there's a kind of push from you know where where entrepreneurs see successful digital entrepreneurs all all around them Uh there's a lot of transparency about that didn't didn't used to be there 20 years ago I can tell you about what the steps are on the on the journey uh and so people feel you know have that that belief that hey you know we we can we we can get in Now you know I I said I think about this a lot because I have mixed feelings right you know sometimes I see entrepreneurs who are going according to this sort of hey as long as you get this sort of customer solution interface correct uh then you're going to make you're going to create some value I see them leaving so much on the table and and not just you know opportunity and wealth for themselves but but but potential impact for their projects because they are just thinking about that nexus at the beginning and not thinking about the the broader kind of business strategy perspective that they're that they're sitting in you know you you may know the name of Fred Wilson uh sort of one of the granddaddies of of the VC industry and he had a very strong view that said look you know entrepreneurs job is just get the get the customer product thing working and then bring in the investors to do the business model And you know if if if you look at the European ecosystem you know I think we could be doing a lot more if we put some emphasis on helping entrepreneurs understand that that the the kind of the wealth creation and business side um earlier in the journey Got it Got it And in terms of kind of you know I think there's a yeah that transparency that now is kind of you know people are constantly sharing their own stories constantly kind of uh showcasing the steps that they've taken more so than say yeah like you said like 20 years ago What do you think are some of the contributing factors that are kind of helping people kind of say actually I can jump into this even if I don't have that 360 because as you were speaking I was kind of like okay well there's probably bigger communities now that didn't exist Yeah um some of the some of the tooling I mean obviously there's AI tools that you can help to kind of do different things as well What do you think are and I'm sure there's some stuff that's you probably would in an advisor you would say stay away from What do you think are some of the things that are like really helping people just say okay you know what I don't have the 360 but I can jump into this well yeah tools as you mentioned uh are are you know the with every with every turn of the wheel uh you get the the people who had to do it without the previous generation of tools saying hey that's a painoint and as an innovator what do I do I identify pain points and I I develop tools to to address them so that the tools are just you know on a kind of continuous upward upward trajectory the other side of it is the um is just the acceptance which I I find fascinating that uh solo entrepreneurship is not a good idea Um and just the the acceptance that hey we should team up uh and therefore have a complimentarity of skills complimentarity of backgrounds experience and so on Um that is going to uh that is going to allow us to go further faster uh and is going to mean that you know even our advisory network is going to be is is is going to be richer So there's a sort of habits of human human association and there's a and there's a tools aspect to to to what you're talking about Okay And then in terms of now kind of looking at you know I'm sure you've got lots of learnings and and research and work that you've been doing I would love to know how did that inform what you were going to build with carbon 13 because now you've got the ability or what there's two questions there if I can ask Number one is why did you choose I' I'd love to know why you chose to kind of focus on kind of climate emergency uh solutions and climate change as part of carbon 13 And then number two would be what were some of the learnings you took away from kind of you know your work your research etc that informed how you wanted to build this particular venture builder Yeah Well great question So three the three-part answer to to why why why climate etc I mean you know the the most basic foundation layer is I was reading Greta Thunderberg um and I just thought you know I want to devote the rest of my career uh to to to working on climate change I don't see a bigger problem um uh that humanity faces and that dubtales into the second reason which is that I've spent a lot of time in lecture theaters telling my students that uh and prospective entrepreneurs that entrepreneurship exists to tackle these kind of problems where there's great uncertainty about how to solve the problem but there's complete certainty about whether the problem is worth solving right um and and so these these kind of grand challenges and and that you know the that you you're diving if you if you dive in as a climate entrepreneur uh you know with with all humility knowing that you you know you you're you're going to go on an interesting journey and it's going to look very different by the time you know at any given stage looking back you're going to think ah okay it's come out different from the way I thought it was it was gonna it was going to look um you're uh you know you're swimming in a in a in a pool of fellow innovators and customers and counterparts generally who are you know looking for an answer to this kind of existential problem that that that that humanity faces And that's kind of a good place to be right is is you know in a situation where it may be that your particular hunch about what needs to be done and how to do it is is wrong but you are associating yourself with innovators who will help you find a path that is going to be productive uh productive uh for you So so it's kind of like that's perfect Now the third part of the answer is a little bit more pragmatic You know I'd been watching entrepreneur first and what Matt Clifford and Alice Bentink had done at at Entrepreneur First uh for many years uh really right back to to 2014 uh was I think the first time that came on my radar and at that time I was a simple entrepreneurship lecturer um yes I'd been an entrepreneur uh myself back in the 90s uh but you know hey guess what the internet didn't really um play a part in that business uh and and everything I know about technology entrepreneurship comes from my you know my teaching and my research right you know I I I there's kind of a base layer of yeah how do you do business and then there was so all the technology stuff was was was was later learnings I was looking at what entrepreneur first was doing I was talking to people who are coming through the program out of the program I was talking to ventures who had succeeded following uh following being an entrepreneur first and I was like with all due respect to the team there there's no magic right it's it's uh it's it's a great model but there's no magic so I I thought I could do that I could do that in fact as a lecturer I was bringing teams together and did I ever get any points for that no I I didn't get points for that So I thought okay uh I've been dying to compete with Entrepreneur First for at that point like the point I made the decision to jump in with carbon 13 for about 5 years Uh and I thought you know what all my strategy uh understanding is that entrepreneur first will not effectively compete with a climate specialist entrant right that they will be stuck as the incumbent on their sort of their investor network their expectations about software investment their their sort of you know their SAS focus uh of course now it's an AI focus these days but you know what was then their SAS focus they will see climate as an opportunity but it won't be an opportunity that they will go after you know without being privy to what happened inside entrepreneur first I was right they you know they announced Not long after carbon 13 kind of got rolling they announced that they were going to do a climate cohort They recruited a climate cohort I believe and then they uh then they kind of withdrew from that and canceled it at the last minute So it's always nice to be it's always nice to be right Um I'm not always right uh and uh and you know so it seemed like if you're going to do a talent first venture builder uh a a a specialist niche where entrepreneur first didn't want to go was the was was was the place to go Now uh the next part of your question was about what did I take from all my reading um that you know that uh and and teaching uh and writing that led me to uh led me to to do carbon 13 in the way that we uh that that we did it Well I think one of my big observations uh you know as as a strategy teacher uh was about the importance of building a real platform right and what I mean by a real platform is mo 99% of accelerators startup accelerators uh not entrepreneur first not y combinator not tech stars but but 99% uh are effectively the kind of funnels for one big investor who's behind it right whether it's corporate venture or whether it's a you know there there's somebody in the background who's saying I want more deal flow and an accelerator is a great way for me to get more deal flow That creates a dynamic where you know all the ventures that are coming through the the uh the the the program uh are evaluated by that investor and and that investor's friends if you like or associates Yeah And if it's top tier then uh or if it's top tier according to that investor's thesis then it gets welcomed into the into the that investor's portfolio If not the investor says "Hey you know you don't fit my portfolio Go and see what you could do with other investors." And that's not ideal from the founders's point of view right because that's a sort of adverse selection problem where you know other investors can't tell the difference between uh doesn't fit you know they they they didn't get investment because ultimately they didn't fit the thesis of the accelerator owner versus they didn't get investment because they're not very good right um so a real platform is necessary in a in a in a really if you want to do a top drawer accelerator you need a real platform where you're genuinely saying the more the marrier in terms of investors right and and it was a feature of my of my years in charge that you would you would get investors kind of coming and knocking on the door and saying "Hey wouldn't this be better if it was more of a proprietary thing that that that came to me and I could you know potentially give you some money if you made it into that." And we would say "No the thing that's best for the founders and the thing that's best for the climate and the sort of success of the innovations that we're trying to foster is to build a sort of uh a pretty open community uh that that is going to to to to bring people in Now it was essential for that model uh that we raised this corporate sponsorship right we you know we raised corporate sponsorship from Volkswagen from BP Ventures Um you know these are names that caused some prospective founders and some of our domain experts and so on to say wow you know that's pretty pretty um interesting decision to take money from these from these corporates that are implicated in uh in in in you know in emissions right um but my view was very strongly and remains that the independence uh of operation the ability to sort of get OPEX in the for that was not tied to any particular investor was essential to fulfilling this vision of of a kind of a real genuine open platform uh for uh for for investors So you know I don't know I don't know if this is an answer you were even vaguely expecting but you know the the point is that there's an architecture challenge with any innovation sourcing project right uh which is saying okay well this what if if you conceive of the challenge really simply as oh we need a stream of deal flow right then you're going to get a kind of linear answer that gives you a stream of deal flow if you conceive of it as well we want to build a launchpad ad that is going to provide the optimal conditions for a particular innovation to actually find its right matches right because that's the key It's like it's not just oh you don't want one investor pulling the strings It's like client techch is such a diverse space in technologies in sort of you know hey we're trying to completely change the world versus we're trying to incrementally uh move things forward uh in terms of uh in there's so many dimensions of of diversity in the in a in a climate tech space that you've got to have a community of of uh of of of investors that are equally diverse or it's just kind of dead weight loss You're just losing stuff that is actually pretty good if it had only had the right eyes uh the the right eyes on it Um I I have a lot more to say on this question I mean but I feel like I've been talking for quite a long time No no So let me let me let me kind of quickly add something and then obviously we can kind of go back and I think this is great because it like to to to your point I was it wasn't exactly what I was thinking this it's it's great because it it it's very eye openening in terms of the approach and I and I kind of feel I was having a conversation with somebody earlier today where in terms of kind of teaching people about experience design for example and and and a lot of people kind of come in with this very closed-minded kind of approach and it seems like a lot of the kind of accelerator programs etc they may be quite closed off in what you're saying and that they're kind of their tick mark in terms of saying acceptance onto this program you must meet certain criteria from our kind of investment partner but if you kind of go more with a kind of wider approach more divergent kind of like hey we're going to allow anyone to be part of this community and then go through the right process be part of the community innovate together will create um yeah like you said there could be somebody who just needed the right kind of helping hand or the right team or the right guidance or whatever you then enable them to be much more successful rather than kind of shutting them off even though they were just maybe a slight few tweaks away they just because they didn't hit that criteria they weren't allowed to kind of proceed um as well so I wasn't expecting that and I think that's good because that's I think that's a very kind of eye opening um thing to me and you know I wouldn't say that I'm an expert in how these programs are built but I'm very aware that there are numerous thousands of accelerators and incubators out there and I'm always curious around which ones people find to be of better value or um or and and I think you know being niche is is very useful as well or very very useful So this this is it's it's it's yeah it's really interesting kind of to hear that um I do have this point because there's no way in terms of that any now when you're looking at people kind of applying or wanting to be on program were there any um certain was there any kind of certain criteria um that you were looking for yeah Yeah Okay So we were putting together cohorts of of of typically 80 people Okay Um that's still the model today Uh and broadly speaking we were looking for 40 technologists and 40 uh let's say commercial people right um now you know that's that's that's not a particularly novel uh idea or way to do it because yeah you need a you need somebody who's going to do the sales and you and and and the negotiation and maybe build the team be the be the relationship builder in that sense Um and you need someone who has the technological um basis to be able to take whatever the product is to proof of concept stage Right that was our definition of a CTO Well or you know a CTO at this sort of super super early stage was if you have the technical chops to take whatever it is that you are thinking about building to proof of concept stage that's great At that point uh funding can flow to maybe get you know different people around the table uh to to to to keep evolving the um the development Now one of the things that we were quite focused on from the start and we did succeed very well in it was to have diverse founders around the table Um and we were we were especially excellent at gender d gender diversity I'm not sure that we were as good as we could have been on other elements of diversity We did we you know if you looked at it with a metric like in counting up how many minority ethnic founders we had we did do okay But uh you know I think we could have put a greater emphasis on that Um we one of the ways that we tried to address the diversity thing is that we created a third category not just commercial and technical but this third category called venture catalysts Right and it was sort of a a a way of sending the message to you know not por not meant pjoratively at all but weird and wonderful people or people who didn't necessarily immediately say "Oh yeah I'm the CEO." Or "Oh yeah I'm the CTO." Uh that they were wanted on the journey as well And so typically we would have about out of the 80 we would have about 15 people who had kind of applied through this route saying "Well I don't I don't know where I fit in the team." Right and some of the most dynamic and effective and you know making great progress today teams that we created were teams where they were teams of three a commercial person and and a technical person So there was a very deliberate effort to try to lower some of the normal kind of self-concept barriers to getting the right level of diversity in the room Now you know we were interested in diversity both from a social justice representation uh point of view and I and I was you know in my opening talk to founders uh at the beginning of every cohort I said look you know if you found a team with no diversity in it uh and you claim that you're an organization that's creating some essential part of the future then that doesn't compute you know you you're making a mistake if you think that three white guys are going you know are are going to uh create an organization that's really going to shake things up right um so we were interested from that point of view but we were also interested in it from the you know from the obvious point of view of you want breakthrough outcomes right you don't just want incremental outcomes then you need diversity right and of course diversity of mindset and perspective and background is is where we're really talking about when we talk about that kind of creativity It's not just it's not just um ethnic or or or gender status But here's the key thing The you know they're so closely linked because you can't you know as soon as you start sending off exclusive messages right as soon as you start sending as soon as people in the community pick up a vibe of non-inclusivity then the most creative thinkers go away right because the most creative thinkers want to be in a place where you know their creativity is is is is going to be unleashed rather than in a place where they have to kind of say "Oh you know what what what's expected of me to fit into this kind of you know this this this kind of business uh business context?" So you kind of have to you know if you want breakthrough innovation outcomes and we were very much about you know carbon unicorns uh you want breakthrough innovation outcomes then you've got to have uh uh you've got to have that attitude You've got to have that sort of like it's you know diversity is important on every single uh kind of facet that you can that you that you can think of Yeah you you know I'm I think we did an a good job of this is going to sound strange but you know a good job of making the white guys comfortable with that right you know that it's kind of like hey you know for I could see for some folks there was an education you know they were kind of just like every entrepreneur has to do they were learning on the job right and kind of real picking up okay interesting interesting interesting interesting um yeah so that was one I I I'll just mention one other thing quickly which is I I spent a huge amount of my time on my my PhD working on reading the social networks literature um and trying to understand kind of these aspects of social capital and how you know and my and my working definition my for entrepreneurs of what is social capital is like are you able to mobilize your network to get stuff done right you know it's one thing to have a million or you know to have 10,000 connections on LinkedIn it's another thing to actually be able to you know find the exact right person with the exact right proposition to get get get things rolling So so I you know and and and and I tried to build into our our our our processes some ideas about well how do ventures create effective social capital right and that's effective on the dimension of like okay you need some in the same way that you need that customer validation you need some good advice you need a good proto advisory board right not an advisory board that's too early for a super early stage but you need a good proto advisory board that is kind of providing shaking things up input all the time right and you need to orient and kind of develop habits in the team of saying hey you know we we're not just looking for the adviser who tell us how to get through the next stage gate We're looking for advisors who really are going to kind of give us a full 360 view of where the next twist in the road is you know uh uh might take us So that was really that that was very important to us Um and and we you know in the in the evaluation process for which investments we made uh I put a lot of emphasis on the question of okay how how good has this team been at assembling a truly uh kind of group of group of people around them And there's one more element which makes this a secret sauce which is teams are much less likely to run into problems and break up if you've got a sort of an or a a group of supporters around the venture that are uh that everybody in the team knows and knows everybody in the team right uh you you're you're you know I'm not saying you don't get any problems right but you're you get fewer problems if you have more mutual if you have more of a cluster right more of a mutual set of acquaintances rather than the CEO knows a lot of people and everybody else is this just there to get on with their job Yeah Okay So oh there's so much there and and this is great because I'm learning a lot as well and if I just kind of quickly look at my own journey of building experience house I wish I had that proto advisory board very early on I kind of have it now and I have people I can kind of reach to and have like kind of worldly conversations but at the beginning it was just like okay let me try and figure this out on my own But if I had that board you know maybe growth could have been more accelerated or it been just a bit more of a smoother ride and the idea of that supporting cluster Um it's so interesting kind of now circling back to where we are talking about you don't necessarily need to have that 360 view to jump into entrepreneurship but you do need a bit of a support mechanism around you to guide you or to kind of run things through or people are going to be looking out for like little ups and downs that inevitably come um as well Um and the other thing I'm going to take away from that is that when you look at most and it could be the other 99% of accelerators or incubators you don't really hear about this stuff the stuff that you're mentioning It tends to be about oh well we have a program coordinator and we have this program and we have these almost like cookie cutter methods and tools that you're going to go through for us to kind of evaluate um or to make you hit the certain criteria or milestones or whatever Maybe that's because they need to satisfy that investor that big investor at the end I'm not sure But um so I think kind of what your approach is very refreshing because it definitely seems more much more communityoriented to support that innovator through that journey Yeah Yeah I mean that you know that that's the approach that that works in my in my view and and and I don't just mean in Karman 13 I mean that that's that's what you know entrepreneur first started as a Mckenzie spin out right you know and and and so you know they avoided the trap of being beholden to one investor and one investor only because they kind of they had an interesting starting story why combinator you know I'm not sure what aspects of the origin story led them into this kind of insight that it's better to have a platform than uh than than whatever it is tech stars had four uh famously They had four founders Uh I think they kind of had a a weird and wonderful combination of networks that allowed this sort of uh this this you know them to kind of bypass this Oh we're just going to we're going to have a very linear uh setup rather than a community Um but I you know you unfortunately the vast majority I mean and there's a lot of terrible accelerators I mean I don't want to rag on people but but I somebody Yeah sent me just a a a draft syllabus I mean and syllabus is even a suspect word right a draft a draft syllabus for a a new um a new accelerator the other day And it it was clearly I mean you know speaking speaking to you I you will understand what I'm about to say It was clearly drawn up by somebody who'd never even heard of design thinking right let alone kind of kind of thought you know thought that there was any value in it right and it was the whole I mean I'm not going to go on It was there is some there is it is amazing to me that there that you know in 2025 when we have all this knowledge available to us people are still coming up with kind of non-custome ccentric uh non network ccentric uh ways of thinking about uh think thinking about how you do startups It's it's um it's extraordinary Yeah And and I you know just to kind of in my own work over the last say I wouldn't say in the last couple years but kind of in the probably when we were chatting 2019 to 2022ish kind of when I was looking at a lot of this stuff and reading a lot of the research around accelerators it seemed to be that a lot of the people that were running or putting these programs together just didn't have the background They they weren't suitably qualified to be actually building that that that program out which is what kind of leads to that kind of challenge they just haven't been through the research or kind of any practical experience or practical life experience to build something like that out and then all of a sudden becomes yeah you start to get these kind of very maybe it's not cookie cutter approach but just this kind of like it's not like you said product or user centric or network ccentric kind of approach it's just kind of a series of methods and tools that are just chopped together you know there is some value in just convening people right the you know the thing is that the reason you can have a really bad accelerator is because uh just bringing together different people with different stuff can create some value right so people come and they're like disappointed but they're not they're like well I got some I I met I got some increase in my network I got some insights I guess it was okay um and of course it comes back to my original architectural point about about money right you know If you don't have any resource how can you how can you create value adding stuff right um yeah you know I mean I you obviously things can be done cheaply right you know if the if the if the guiding intelligence is behind what what is designed is is done you know with a lot a lot of care and and and and thought then you can do a really quality thing cheaply But um you know my thought was okay at that time I was in my early 50s I was I was like okay this is going to be my um my masterpiece Uh and I mean I hope it did go pretty well but you know I I hoped for it to be my my masterpiece and uh and and I just wanted to make sure that we had enough resources to kind of do it properly Um and and I mean I look back and I can see all kinds of ways that I we we had a you know we could have spent some of the money better but but I guess that's always that's the innovator's journey Uh it's part and parcel of the innovator's journey Yeah absolutely Um I'm going to I I would love to kind of connect with you and kind of have a coffee again in the future Maybe I'll come up to you or whatever we whatever we think of I'd love to kind of pick up the conversation again But I want to end with one final it's quite a big question and I think it kind of it it it's about the innovator's journey kind of the entrepreneurs journey I would love to kind of get an understanding from you what you see are the biggest skill sets Now a lot of our audience will be people that are kind of either in design but no doubt we'll probably be looking at starting a venture The ability to start new ventures and startups and tech startups is greater than ever with the kind of the AI tools and rapid prototyping and that we can do I would love to know from you or hear from you about your thoughts on what are the skill sets that you feel a successful entrepreneur innovator should be starting to think about or pick up say over the next couple of years Um and I'll just start with one that I think is
